problems with my university classmates

[JASMIN]

Hello everyone,

well, I hope there is someone who can give me an advice how to solve my problem.

While studying the second term here at a university in Issan, I had enough time to watch the behaviour of the other students in my class. Of course, it is not much different from German university classes. I study in the weekend-program for there is no Monday-Friday program for Master Degree in Counseling and Educational Psychology. According to this, I only meet my classmates during Friday evening and Saturday.
The first two weeks, we did not know each other. But maybe after two weeks, groups were forming. There are two main female groups and one male group. And of course, there is a lot of gossiping between both groups and within the groups. Gossiping is more obvious here than in Germany, I think.
I also have to admit, I do not feel belonged to neither this nor that group. Maybe due to the fact that we just study together for two days, there is not much communication between the students and me. And on the other hand, it is really difficult to get a talk started with them for we have too different interests in talking topics.
Since the last term, our teachers did give us group work to do - that people use to call team work. Groups than are forming by terms of power and strength and friendship they have to deal with the stuff our teachers wants us to do. So there are groups with only good and bright students (according to Thai standard!) and groups with somewho weaker students. I get mostly refused or not asked to join the groups. Then it cames along that there are certain students who never helped the other group members preparing lectures and reports. It is like a chronic disease. Consequently, the other students start complaining about these lazy ones for at the end of the term, the lazy ones get the same marks (grades) as these who really worked hard. I told them, if they only complain it will not change. If they do need a change, they should talk to the teachers. They told me, they are afraid to talk to the teachers for the teachers only scold them for their ineffective teamwork and they would also loose friendship with the lazy ones. But in my opinion, these lazy students are not good friends at all for they know as long as no one dares to tell the teachers, they can use their method every term. They use other students for their own benefit. So I said to the hard working students that I can go and speak with the teachers if they do not dare. But they said, I should not go for if I tell the teachers, no one in the class would like me anymore. They say it is Thai culture that people do not speak out even if things are becoming unfair. And of course, our teachers seem to be blind....
That is the real group force here in Thailand!
I only feel strange within my class when it comes to work in groups. Well, we can speak together before class, but usually that is more small talk and nothing much interesting. I have good relationships with most of my teachers , the librarians and some staff in the administration section as well as with my piano teacher. If I speak with them, I feel like we are friends and they seem to be interested in a broader area of topics.
I think, I do not lack social competence, but at the moment have a problem to deal with this black facette of Thai culture.
I then decided to do my stuff by my own in class for I really cannot work with others in a team under this conditions. For me, (Christian religion) it is as if I would lie to my teachers. But now, my teachers look at me as if I would lack social competence. What should I do now? Should I tell my teachers the truth about group structures in my class and that there is some kind of corruption happening? Is there anyone who can help me with my decision? Thanks a lot for good advices.
JASMIN

[lenss]

This one's for Annetta.

[Sved]

Well I wouldnt say this is a thai problem as much as a school problem. Its been a while since I been to school but I remember every time there were group assignments of course you wanted to group with the people who were really good at whatever the subject was and of course you had students who wanted a free ride.

While unfair I dont think anyone told the teachers ever.

[syn]

Jasmin, sorry to hear about this. It is very common in Thai educational system. I don't know if I have the answer for you. When I was in school, what I did was I gave the lazy ones kind of brainless jobs. At least they participated, even though, they didn't get any knowledge or didn't practice their thinking process. It happens at any level of education which is sad.
You would think higher education make people have more responsibility.

If you tell teachers, you will be called as " a teacher's pet" and people will not like you much or not at all. They will not share anything with you again because they are afraid that you will sell them to teachers. You will be he next topic for their gossips.

Teachers know about this because this happened when they were students. When I was an instructor, I was trying to make it better by asking them to do an individual reports on their field trips and each of them had to have different answers because each person has different opinion. It was a lot of work for me to read them. Very few teachers want to do that. I am not sure it worked because with others instructor, same thing happened. In your case, it cannot be done as an individual report so there will be someone taking advantage of others.

IMHO, I think you do your best and give them some brainless jobs to do. At least, let them participate. The more you do, the more experience you will get. I know it doesn't sound fair.

[erynnbanks]

I don't think the situation like this happening only in Thailand. Last semester, I met two of the groupmates who didn't want to do anything else besides waiting to see whatever left to be done to the projects. They were from different continents. This situation of work/study reflects human societies in general. There will always be people who are leaders, followers, and doing-nothing-watcher/bystanders. Some will have their own thoughts and ideas, some will simply borrow a single braincell from any ameoba. we can also see this situation in any Congress/Parliament. I'm so proud of you though, keep your cool.

[Marie]

Jasmine,

I think you will agree with me that your concerns are basically Group Dynamics issues that could get in the way of learning. Especially for a foreigner like you who is still adjusting to the culture, some of these could dampen your enthusiasm.

Let us divide your concerns into two categories:

1) Your feeling that it is unfair that all the members of a group get the same grade regardless of their contribution to the group project; and

2) Your feeling of exclusion.

I will address the first one.

Learners have different levels of motivation, capabilities, interests, and commitments. This problem can be managed by the teacher by implementing a grading system for group work whereby each member will rate other members contribution using some relevant criteria. I am suggesting something similar to the following:

a) Quality of contribution/input to the group work ( correctness)--30%
b) Quantity of contribution/input ( fair amount of assigned task)--30%
c) Timeliness--(submitted on time)--15%
d) Interpersonal relations with co-members--(friendly, cooperative) 15%

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All the members will rate each other anonymously, (ie; the rater need not reveal their identitiy) and the teacher will use the ratings as guidelines in grading the students. Hence, it is highly probable that the grades will not be uniform.

You can change the criteria cited above and the corresponding weight, based on what is important to your case. You will note that the last item--interpersonal relations--is included to make the students conscious that it is important to be pleasant to their co-members. This will partly address your feeling of being left-out.

The open-ended part will take care of some comments, like explanations on why a certain person is rated poorly, or certain suggestions, etc.

I think your bigger challenge is how to sell this idea to the teacher. Perhaps you can do it diplomatically--saying that it is used in other universitiies abroad and it may be worth trying it out in your university.

(Maybe some forum members have better ideas on how to convince the teachers in using a rating system like this?)

I will discuss the second part, your feeling of being excluded, in the next post. I want to avoid very long posts.

[JASMIN]

Hello Marieke,

thank you for your good describtion. In Germany, sure we have the same problems. But when in comes to the point, that no one can bear the unfairness anymore, sure there will be someone going to tell the teacher. However, it is quite different here in Thailand for most of my classmates who complain about the lazy ones simply fear to consult their teachers. They fear they bcome scolded by their teachers for ineffective group communication and group work. And who wants to loose face? That is the point here. And be certain, the lazy ones would not go to complain with the teachers for they are the only ones benefitting from this situation.

Well, please let me explain the meaning of exclusion now even though you did not yet give a comment to it.

1. You should understand that I study Saturday/Sunday Program for there is no Monday/Friday Program for us. If Thais are working, they choose to study at a university during the weekend. So they come from all of the provinces in Issan to study in my university. And they will go back home after the lesson. If communication takes place, than via mobile phone. Most of my classmates are really much much older than me, but there are some, who are younger than me. We meet us to study in the classroom where we have to be quiet to listen to the teacher and then, they will go home.
I also cannot go with them for I am bound to stay here due to the reason to practise piano (in rural districts, they do not have pianos) and because of my regular eye treatment at hospital that needs special attention now for I have to prepare for my next operation.

2. Most know, somehow they will pass the exams for it is a rule in the current Thai education system that everybody has to pass. A teacher cannot let a student fail first because the teacher would loose face and second because of this rule and third some students have some kind of good image jobs (like police man) that maybe creates uncertain feelings within the teacher group whether to let these students fail or not. And for sure, some students get better marks (grades) just because they come from the North and look beautiful or simply because the teacher likes them and dislikes others that is even expressed through statements by the teacher in class. And again other students ar TA (teachers assistant) being able to build connections to every teacher that makes them getting good grades, but in real, these TAs do not know anything.

3. That consequently makes students being very unmotivated and uninterested in doing much. The ones who work complain about the unfairness and the lazy ones becomming more lazy. Most of my classmates would hardly grap a book to read. And for me it means that I can hardly start a conversation about the things we have to study. One should think, well try to mix with the diligent ones who want to develop themselves by studying. The ones, who do get good marks do so mostly because the teacher like them. But there is no one to share experiences and discuss about the stuff we have to study. Beside this, they simply cannot read English books and I cannot translate everything in Thai. So they do not understand what I am doing, but also refuse taking a dictionary to help themselves.

4. Not every teacher is like this. And it is interesting to see that these teachers who ever went to study abroad start to understand this problem and try to solve and correct their behaviour. But there is a certain tendency that you do not get grades because of your knowledge you possess but more because of moral and smooth behaviour towards your teacher. It is the same system like in a Thai primary and secondary school.

5. I have to be fair, my teachers have to work hard, too. Some of them simply do not see the problems in our class for they have not much time to focus on them. Or some of them feel bored with the system and the students. One teacher now refuses giving lessons for master weekend program for it lacks quality and standart. She is right.

6. I have good relationships with most of my teachers, the administration section, the librians and my piano teacher as well as some adults in some church communities and the staff at the hospital where I have to go regularly to get my eye treatment. (Although I am Christian, I do not teach religion in Thailand, I do not like this kind of mission.). I can call them my friends and these are peple I really can trust. I just wondered how to solve this class problem.

But well, quality of the educational system and quality of the students will always be very very low. Please consider these topics when you will anser about my feelings of exclusion.
JASMIN

[Betti]

Jasmin, I can understand your frustration.
I agree that in this setting, it would be a mistake to go to the teacher and isolate yourself.
if I were you - it would all depend on how irritated I feel, and how much extra work I had to do because of lazy students.
even though others are lazy, and will get the same certificate anyway, just be happy that you can do your best and learn from the experience. after all, in real life grades will not take you very far, but the knowledge and experience you got will.
the other thing is - do the "lazy" students contribute or just make your life more difficult? if I felt that I was just hindered, I would probably go to the teacher and ask for an exception, saying there are language barriers, or that I want to learn more, something like this, and do the project by myself, or with another student who has the same problem. sometimes it is much easier to do work intended for 3 or 4 people than to drag them along, get annoyed, correct their mistakes, etc.
I've never been much of a sociable person and have always had a hard time working closely with someone on a project, I admit.
I really don't know you or your situation so this is not really intended to be advice, just pondering.

[ThuggieDuckie]

Tell the teacher what a professional teacher would do to deal with this problem.

[Marie]

Hello everyone,

I do not feel I belong to neither this nor that group. Maybe due to the fact that we just study together for two days, there is not much communication between the students and me. And on the other hand, it is really difficult to get a talk started with them for we have too different interests in talking topics.

So there are groups with only good and bright students (according to Thai standard!) and groups with somewho weaker students. I get mostly refused or not asked to join the groups.

JASMIN

Jasmin,

I am sorry it had taken a while before I could go back to your other concern--feeling of exclusion.

It seems that the situation of your classmates --being full -time workers who can only attend weekend classes--naturally limits their time for interaction with you. They may not know much about you, your talents, and your intellectual capacities. And so you do not get to be classified under any categories.

Apart from that, under those circumstances, they might tend to team up with those who know the surroundings well, perhaps because they feel they could simplify matters that way. As you said, some of them are lazy. If they take you, they probably think they need to spend extra effort to orient you.

This case is one where you don't have a direct control of the situation. The main problem involves other people's behaviour. The best approach to this kind of problems is to change your methods of influencing others.

Unfortunately, the easiest way to get accepted as an outsider into a new group is to show that you embrace their culture, that you are one of them. If I were you, I would look for some aspects of the culture which are parallel to my own values and grab evey opportunity to display them.

All the best!

Marie