How is it living in Thailand as an African American Woman/Man?

[Marie]

Im glad someone brought this subject up. I was reading online and I did find a few occasations where "black" African people with dark skin were treated in a not so friendly way. I will provid the IF i can find it. As marie knows, my memory is BAD AHAHAHHAHAAA!!

Just a suggestion: The 3 most effective ways to improve memory are: 1) Have enough exercise and sleep. 2) Bulk up on brain-boosting foods.

Sorry, I can't remember the third one.

[PeaBrain]

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[Pakman]

I am an American Black guy and a living in Thailand Yoda. I've been living here full-time since 2001. Married with 2 kids. Middle-aged and extremely handsome with a great personality and more modesty than anyone you have ever met in your life! <ok, I'm joking a bit>

Anyway, this is my first post, but anyone should feel free to hit me up with any questions about life here as an American black guy. To comment on some of the thread:

Thais are not racist (or at least I have never encounter any). However, they DO have major issues with Colorism (Google it and understand how it differs greatly from racism). Colorism is pervasive throughout Thai society, but most are completely oblivious to it and simply accept it as normal behavior. The whiter someone or something is, the "better" the person/it must be. Being a Black guy from America...

Commercial Break: I'm not hung up about political correctness, but I am an American who dislike hyphens. My roots are 230+ years deep in America, so to suggest I can identify with being African other than the obvious physical similarities is simply ridiculous. Most Americans are from elsewhere, so at what point do Americans dump the hyphen? I think 3rd generation and after would be appropriate, but not mandatory. I have also spent time in East and West Africa and believe me - we ain't gotz nuttin' else in common. So, no hyphen for me. I am 110% American (except when Bush was in office, I was Canadian - ha!). I throw in the "Black" or "black" (I am actually reddish-brown) only because it is familiar to others.

End commercial.

Being a Black person from America, you will likely be more sensitive to people behaving in ways which raise those racism flags you brought over with you from living in Amerikkka. Things like people staring and giggling (especially kids), employees seemingly ignoring you or refusing to speak to you, or the occasional overt snub or outright diss are just a few examples. The 80/20 rule is ALWAYS in effect here. 80% of the time, you are going to misinterpret their behavior. 80% of Thais have obvious colorism issues. 20% are sincerely cool. If you plan on living here, try to surround yourself with those 20%. Life will be a lot less stressful.

There are some benefits, though. Benefits that farang/falang (which is generic for "white person") do not even enjoy (most Thais kiss their ___ and wish they could be "beautiful" or "handsome" like farang/falang). To be sure, farang/falang often experience and often flip out over what we would consider very mild discrimination like jacked up prices and such. As a Black person, most Thais will see you as less wealthy, less intelligent, less whatever compared to themselves and especially compared to farang/falang. Exploit that misperception to your advantage. Playing the "I am just a poor Black guy" role will often get you "Thai pricing". Playing the "I am just a dumb Black guy" role will often get you out of paying traffic fines/shakedowns and such. Whip out your monetary, intellectual, or other assets only when needed. Let them play themselves all other times. You'll be cracking up inside laughing.

A MAJOR disadvantage is work or doing business in general. Do not expect Thais to want to work for you or do business with you. If you plan to do business here, you need to set yourself up to be the Mack in the Back and let some Thai or farang/falang be the Chump in the Front. That is exactly what the Thai-Indians have been doing for generations and they own or control huge chunks of shopping centers and housing developments, major construction companies, Thai Airways (yes, the national carrier), pretty much the entire distribution chain for everything coming into or leaving Thailand, and large chunks of real estate all over the Kingdom. You'd be amazed at what they control and even more amazed at how they operate under the radar. They are to Thailand what Jews are to America ('nuff said!).

If you speak the language, there are some advantages when it comes to bonding with people. Especially the "lower class", darker Thais. They feel more "same-same" around you and as if they don't have to be so "oh, Great White Father"-ish towards you. That can be an especially good thing in casual social settings or when establishing serious relationships.

As for relationships, being a Black American has its positive and negative sides. I'll contrast these with a farang/falang just for the sake of making the point. On the negative, you and she will encounter resistance from her family and people will often snub her or you both when out in public; whereas if you were a farang/falang, she would be seen (except in Hi-So circles) as having hit the jackpot and she would get a bump up in her social standing and perceived wealth: a true "mia farang/falang". On the positive side, if that lady is willing and able to endure going against her family (in some cases) and her society, then you know she is most likely truly down for YOU and not so much what you bring to the table; whereas if you were a farang/falang, you can't really be as sure whether she is down for YOU or what you bring to the table (status, wealth, etc.). I could tell many, many stories past and present - but that is another topic. Suffice it to say that from what I have observed over the years, the percentage of failed Black American-Thai relationships, is much lower than the percentage of failed farang/falang-Thai relationships. That's just MY observation of people I know, know of, or heard about. I can only speculate that in MY observations, Black American guys put their Thai lady on a pedestal as if SHE is the catch; whereas in farang/falang-Thai relationships, the Thai lady puts the farang/falang guy up on the pedestal as if HE is the "catch". It's an interesting dynamic and paradigm to observe.

Anyway, I'm going to pause my novel here before I really start rambling...

[Betti]

Thank you for this post, probably the best piece of writing on the forum for a long time.
Things are pretty similar here in Burma, the big difference for me personally being that now I teach 10-year-olds, not 6-year-olds, and it's in the meantime, somewhere in between that the kids learn about colorism. I was totally unprepared for all the snide remarks they have for each other, or even characters in movies or stories. now I am reminded that probably more should be done about this (but this class has had so many issues that my had has been spinning for weeks).

[Marie]

When it comes to COLORISM I think the Philippines is one of the countries where it is strongest. The kids pick it up from their parents. I have witnessed occasions when parents would warn their kids, "Better behave or else I will give you to that guy over there (a black person)," the way they would scare children about ghosts or ghouls. And the kids would cringe in fear.

There was a black lady from Gambia, West Africa who came to Manila to pursue her studies under USAID scholarship program. She resided near an elementary school where she had to pass through to get her ride going to her university. And everyday she would get snide remarks from the kids. Though she didn't understand everything, she could tell that they were making fun of her. To her this became a torture. When I happened to meet her in USAID office she was in tears and she was saying she could not stand it anymore; she wanted to go home.

I understood her agony. Here she was sorely missing the comforts of home and now was being subjected to unkind treatment. I decided to see the principal of the elementary school to discuss what was to be done to stop the kids from poking fun at her. The following week during flag ceremony the principal presented this lady to the hundreds of students and explained who she was, where she came from, and other things about her country and her race. The taunting ceased as the students got better education.

Another similar incident I witnessed was when an African American scentist I was accompanying in Manila was walking and a father and his two boys ( probably age 8 and 10) were screaming at him "Egoy! Egoy!" (This is deragatory slang for "Negro".) It didn't stop there. They were also shouting to him in vernacular that probably even his private parts were as black as coal. And mind you, this father and his two boys were smelly as anything, dressed in tattered clothes, and were pushing a cart to collect recycables from garbage cans to make a living.They would be lucky to earn 50 baht a day from that. And here they thought they were superior to this black person just because his skin was a tinge darker than theirs (they were very dark brown - complexioned themselves!).

I didn't let it pass. I just had to deliver the following short but impassioned impromptu speech in the vernacular: " Do you know who this person is? He is a doctor. What about you, did you even attend school? He drives a nice car, not a rundown pushcart like yours. He lives in a nice, big house, not in a dilapidated shanty like yours. He has 20,000 million pesos in the bank-do you know where to get your next meals tomorrow? And you think you are better than he is just because he is a bit darker than you? "

I knew my actions couldn't create enough ripples to effect a big change. But I thought each person should contribute their part, however small, in solving the problem.

I didn't know the same issue was also prevalent in Burma. I wouldn't be surprised about Thailand; I know how Thais are concious about colors of skin. I guess the schools are in a very good position to alter this mindset.

[Pakman]

I've spent time in PI and other countries. None have a Colorism problem as severe as Thailand. The example you offered, while disturbing, also happens in Thailand. Heck, I recall many times taking a stroll through several villages where I was subjected to similar taunting (especially by Thai children) before I learned the language. It still happens whenever I pass by a schoolyard. However, a few friendly words spoken in reply not only shocks the beejeezus out of them, it also puts a stop to it (usually). I mean, really...you can't blame the kids entirely when you KNOW they get it from their parents AND from the schools. I recall a poster similar to this hanging on a classroom wall during one of my first visits to a village school many years ago:

http://madartlab.com/files/2011/03/e..._080103_ms.jpg

After the shock wore off, I realized such ignorance about Black people is taught by [very welcoming and polite, but] ignorant teachers who themselves were taught the same ignorance. When ignorance is institutionalized like that, one can understand why ignorance about Black people (and darker Thais) is so pervasive in Thai society. I mean, really...you can watch soap operas today which have Thais in black face and nappy hair portraying Black people on national TV. Now THAT type of stuff is racism, not colorism; but I'd bet the actors and the majority of the audience would be completely oblivious that is how they come across. My own wife of 8 years and mother of my son, watching such shows, sees nothing wrong with it. That's just how deep the ignorance or perception is here. I draw the line at exposing our kids to it (our daughter is full Thai and almost as dark as me), but my wife watches whatever she wants when they are not around. Ironically, this same wife will cut ya if you so much as think about saying anything derogatory about me or our kids.

Going back to the stroll through the village, as it were: Just for background and hopefully not being too boastful or revealing, I have enough initials behind my name to make another person. No, really. I live in a custom-built and landscaped large modern home, I semi-retired at age 32 several years ago, yet still earn in the (USD) six-figure range in my underwear from the comfort of my home office between playing games of World of Warcraft and sushi lunches with my wife. Yet, as pointed out in the previous post, even the children of the lady who landscapes my lawn for THB 300/day see themselves as "better" than me/us. She is great and I seriously doubt she ever encouraged such behavior in her home, but the giggles and mumbling emanating from her kids when she would bring them to help on occasion became so annoying, I had to ask her to leave them at home; or I would ask the wife to find other people if the days' work required more than just her.

"The old village", where my wife was born and raised is waaaaaay out in the sticks. It's a 5 hour (mostly) dirt-road walk just to get to the main road, and then another hour's walk to the nearest town. The ignorance and colorism in THAT village is mesmerizing. The majority of villagers are about the same complexion as me. Some shades darker. Yet, it seems every conversation has to begin, end, or contain references about somebody's skin tone. An Aunt discussing her son's (my "nephew" as it were) upcoming marriage states no fewer than four times how "white" he's become since having moved to Bangkok and how his older wife-to-be is "not too dark". Has nothing to do with the subject of marriage, but "oh, that's nice", I reply. Years ago, a (then) adolescent niece and some of her friends would rush over to me, stretch out my arm, and press theirs against mine as a routine check while remarking excitedly how "white" they are (um...no.) compared to me. This same niece is currently interested in marrying my nephew who is much darker than I. A village elder woman walks over to my wife and discreetly asks if we are ok financially and gives us a bag of rice to ensure the kids have enough to eat. Even after (then) 6 years of marriage, she and others in the village believed we were poor, struggling, and worse off than them. It is simply incomprehensible to them to think otherwise - because of me. [Of note: When I visited that village while I was courting my wife, some of the favorite programs on TV involved National Geographic-ish shows depicting African villagers dancing around in rags and living in squalor. To be sure: these same Thai villagers were watching these TV shows in a tin-roof scrap-wood leaky shack with a hole in the floor for crapping, a plastic bowl floating in a bacteria-ridden concrete washtub next to it, red dirt dust everywhere, flies having a party on top of the evening meal consisting of food they just foraged from the nearby forest (mushrooms), dirty creek (fish), and field (rice and insects), and commenting about how unfortunate those Black people must be...go figure...]

Our current home is built on the outskirts of a similar village with old wooden or new bare concrete block homes, but just 15-20 minutes away from the city center. There is another guy from England across the road from us. The villagers rarely see me except when I am out walking the yard in the morning, sitting on the swing sipping iced tea and listening to music in the afternoon, or playing with the kids and wife in the yard near dusk when it's cooling down. Still, although we've been here for 2 years now, some still pass by and gawk at me in disbelief that I actually live in/own this house. I get a kick out of the facial expressions which is why I put the swing out there - so I could gawk at them gawking at me.

Man o man am I rambling, or what?

Anywho, time to take my daughter (10 yo and in P5 - err, 5th grade) to school...

Until the mood strikes again!

[Pakman]

Back! I drifted off the subject of Colorism in Thailand in my previous post and gave examples specific to me or Black people in Thailand. What Black people experience is not really the point I wanted to make and I apologize for my ramblings. Colorism is mostly not about discrimination against "other" people. Colorism is mostly about discrimination and bigotry against one's own people. When I say it is prevalent in Thai society, what I mean is that the discrimination and bigotry by Thais against other Thais is rampant and blatant, IF (with emphasis) one chooses to see it.

Some examples: Ever notice how the lighter complexioned Thais always seem to have the good/best jobs and the darker Thais are cleaning up messes and doing the hard labor? [to be fair, that happens in most societies] Ever notice the lighter toned Thais are rarely seen doing the menial jobs? Ever notice how lighter toned men don't end up being drafted by the village draft lottery or live their life pigeon-holed as a street-level cop? Ever notice how TV commercials and magazine ads directed at families always seem to have some mixed "Thai" couple with an unbelievably lilly-white baby? Thais from Isaan or ethnically indigenous Thai are not represented in proportion to their numbers in the Thai population. Go out and try to buy a Thai baby doll. They don't exist. Why? (I asked on many occasions) "Because they are not beautiful", says the employee/vendor matter-of-factly and without any hint of shame. I know of several darker toned Thai university graduates who can't get a job. Why? Because this in this country, attaching a color photo to your job application is mandatory. Which leads me to mention how Photoshopping one's picture to make oneself appear much, much lighter is not only pervasive, but the norm. Ever notice how darn near every popular cosmetic (or cosmetic which wants to be popular) must have "with WHITE!" on the label? Ever notice kids running around with white powder on their face, neck, and any other part of the anatomy where it will stick? Why? Do I really need to answer that?

I see examples of colorism so frequently that I am embarrassed FOR some Thais when they display such behavior. I mean, really? If you're a Thai darker than me and talking TO me, why would you even think to go on about how you think so-and-so is not beautiful because that person's skin tone is not white? Really? YOU are having that sort of discussion with ME? It makes me so embarrassed for them that I think at times I turn red. (ha!)

OMG, the Thai on Thai colorism is so deep. I won't even go into a discussion of luek-krungs (mixed Thais). There is another very interesting thread about that on the forum which essentially begins with a Euro-Thai young lady anguishing over being pigeon-holed into a life of being a model and TV starlet...I can't seem to find a similar thread written by an ethnic Isaan woman. Oh, because they are not burdened by those kinds of grievous problems. Does one wonder why?

Colorism.

To be sure: Black Americans went through the same bout with Colorism for generations. We mostly conquered it by the 1980's, but Black on Black colorism does still exist in some places in the USA. Almost any Black American born before then knows about the "brown paper bag" test. If you were darker than a brown paper bag, then you might not be allowed to marry someone's son/daughter. You might not get that well-paying or high-profile position. You might not get accepted to that prestigious Black fraternity or sorority (Alpha Kappa Alpha, hello?). The list of things that brown paper bag influenced is long and varied, but we eventually got over that hump, for the most part. Thais have yet to recognize that hump even exists in their society, so I would not expect there to be any movement to get over it until someone summons the courage to stand up and motivate society to recognize and then lead them in getting over that hump. IMHO, colorism is a huge barrier to Thailand's progress on many levels.

Look at me going on as if I have nothing else to do today. Ah, well. World of Warcraft beckons and I must heed the call!

[Pakman]

Ok, so up to this point we have established the general background against which you will be going about your daily life here in LOS as a Black American. But wait! Much of the above can change for better or worse depending on WHERE in the Kingdom you reside. Just like in America where life can be less or more stressful depending upon whether you live in a small southern town or New York City, so too is there a vast difference depending upon whether you live in Bangkok, a sin city like Pattaya/Phuket, a normal city like Khon Kaen/Udon, a remote village in an outer province, or somewhere else. Equally as impacting would be whether you live as a single person or married. All of those things and more play a part as to what you can expect and how you will perceive your life in Thailand.

I can only comment on what I know from my own experiences and observing the experiences of others, and others may have a different take. Perception is relative, but all perceptions are generally and equally "The Truth". I won't go into all the possible combinations of the aforementioned life scenarios (well, not today), but let me offer my take on just two: Life in a sin city as a single Black American male and life in a normal provincial city as a married Black American male.

In a sin city, money rules. The extent of your happiness and the quantity and "quality" of friends you have to enjoy life is almost entirely dependent upon your cash flow. You don't have to have a large quantity of cash - you just need not run out of it or come up short. The day that happens and afterwards, you will see your happiness morph into misery as fewer and fewer of your BFFs or "girlfriends" prefer to be around you. C.R.E.A.M. is in full effect. I won't go into budgets and living standards as those can be found elsewhere and are not unique to Black Americans living in Thailand.

In a normal provincial city, as a married person, appearances rule. You don't have to have a lot of money nor do you need great cash flow. You just need to look like you ain't broke and carry yourself as a decent, law-abiding person would. Your neighbors (Thais) respect the appearance of money. So, an investment in a decent amount of "for show" gold might not be a bad idea. Floss a bit, but don't be ostentatious with it. If you are married, it is more important your wife looks well off than it is for you to look well off. She represents the status other Thais will perceive. She is happiest when other Thais are jealous when they see you both out together. Sort of like "Yeah, he's MY husband and my life is waaaay better than your life, Biayotch!" Yeah, I'm being a bit dramatic, but you get the gist of it. Your wife may be like my wife and not give a whoot about appearances, but there are times, she might want to whip out her gold jewelry and (figuratively) smack up some people with it. I pretty much sport something around my neck everytime we go out just as a non-verbal "F-you" to those who would otherwise think they are better than me. It's shallow, I know; but Thais overtly respect me more with it than without it. It's a society based upon appearances - like it or not. If I am going to be around other foreigners, I usually leave all appearances stuff at home because we generally see the person, and don't give a whoot about that person's "status" or wealth. That's a huge gap in the Thai/foreigner paradigm and could be a rather lengthy discussion for some other thread.

I would say living in a normal provincial city (either single or married) is far, far more enjoyable than living in a sin city, Bangkok, or remote village. I would also say living in a remote village is the worst. Not because of the location, but because everyone will be watching your every move at all times. THAT, my friends, is not only intrusive at times, but it is also annoying beyond belief! If your budget is limited or relatively unlimited, life in a normal provincial city is much, much better than other places in LOS.

Until next time! Cheers!

[Marie]

. . It's a society based upon appearances - like it or not. If I am going to be around other foreigners, I usually leave all appearances stuff at home because we generally see the person, and don't give a whoot about that person's "status" or wealth. That's a huge gap in the Thai/foreigner paradigm and could be a rather lengthy discussion for some other thread.

Well, I guess that's how it is almost all over the world. As a stranger we are judged by our appearance-because that's the
only avaialble bit of info about us at that stage. But I understand what you are saying that in Thailand they stretch that phase too long. I agree that that can create a "huge gap in the Thai/foreigner paradigm." And perhaps any foreigner contemplating on moving to Thailand should be aware of it.

Thanks for your picturesque accounts. They are rich with helpful insights!

[Betti]

Interesting stuff about "showing off" wealth, and I completely see your reasons and the whole line of argument, however, it's just interesting that as a single (white) female living alone I've come to the conclusion that I need to do the complete opposite. I keep my stash in the bank, and don't care the slightest for appearances, old mobile, old motorcycle, cheap clothes, no jewellery, my only splurging is the holidays (and neighbours know if you're away for a month!) Simply put, I didn't want anyone starting to wonder if it's a good idea to break into my house or knock me down in the street, or just come and borrow money (never to give it back), solicit donations.
The same here in Yangon - after paying my rent (which is always to be paid for the whole year ahead, in one sum), I actually asked my internet provider (the internet cafe downstairs) whether I could pay next month because I'm completely out of cash - he'd been really nosy about my salary and I didn't want him to know that I had enough cash in my pocket to put 90,000 baht on the table. I would occasionally borrow money and apologise, remark that something is really expensive, etc.