Reputation in Thailand

[Betti]

make no mistakes, whenever I had a problem or thought something, I DID say it, and didn't care much about face. not sure how, but I escaped alive, and they absolutely didn't want me to leave. I mean the parents and the kids, and my farang bosses. my Thai boss, well I guess she was relieved because I kept embarrassing her all the time. but sorry, I won't put anyone's face before a kid's interests, period. been always like this, and got away with it most of the time. that IS an advantage of being outside the framework. a Thai would have been fired on day 2 for some of the things I did over the years.
I'm not disappointed or bitter or anything, I'm just too much of a no-nonsense person, I've learnt that even if I walk on eggshells I will hurt people no matter what, so I'm playing without holding anything back, and I've been lucky or not sure but it works most of the time. and over the years I got the impression that many Thais are tired of face-saving all the time, they see how nonsense it can get, and they wish they could quit the system but they can't. I still firmly believe that Thailand can change and will change, and will need to change, but just like anywhere in the world, it has to come from within. and the more educated people there are, the more people out there on the internet discussing and doubting things, dragging issues out to the open for example, the sooner it will start happening.

[iGotNoTime]

I agree with you on everything you said at least from the outside looking in. I wish I could say I know first hand, but I don't know yet.

I got the impression that many Thais are tired of face-saving all the time, they see how nonsense it can get, and they wish they could quit the system but they can't.

The above quote I agree with most, that can easily be seen just by looking at what the uni students are tweeting these days. The time will come soon enough I am sure the current generations will see it. the sad thing is the losses sustained in the meantime. Teachers like Betti I am sure will be remembered for years by the students, it was the students first taste of the real world outside of box of protection, away from the game they were raised to play. Though on the other hand I see major benefits to the game and it's effect on the society and culture. It will be interesting how much Thai culture is damaged /changed when the idea of the face game fades.

[Ming1]

On the other hand, suppose you gave your subordinates a task; one which they knew immediately after hearing what you said, couldn't be done. None of your staff would say to you, "Umm excuse me sir, that's just not possible (in the time frame, with the resources available to us, etc). This is because you would "lose face" by having been too stupid to have seen what was obvious to them.

It's normal to make mistakes during the work. Mistakes happen every day. If this is true Thais would lose their face very often.
Think about this example:
A banker in Thailand buys 10 shares per month. Usually 8 shares rise their price and 2 shares reduces the price. So the banker makes a lot of money but he loses his face two times per month.
Another banker in Thailand buys 3 shares per month. Usually all 3 shares rise their price. The banker don't lose his face although he makes not as much money.
Do Thais think that the second banker is better because he didn't lose his face?

This is especially true here in Thailand regarding superior/subordinate relationships in the work place. You might sit and socialize after work with the Thais who work under you, but it's gonna be nothing more than totally superficial conversations in which the Thais are oh-so conscious that you're their superior at work. It's gonna be "totally fake" interaction with them and you'll never be "part of their group" especially if you're their boss in the workplace.

This is a perfect description of what happened to me. I often tried to break the ice but it was not possible. What can I do to make friends?

[iGotNoTime]

What can I do to make friends?

Keep your work life and colleagues separate from your social life and friends.

[Curt]

That's how I feel Curt. I am certain I would get frustrated far too easily. I have no intention of working in Thailand. I love the idea of teaching but certainly not for money or a working relationship. ...

It sounds like you would entertain the idea of teaching for the satisfaction of passing on knowledge ........

Haven't met any Thai students, have we?

[Tod-Daniels]

It sounds like you would entertain the idea of teaching for the satisfaction of passing on knowledge ........

Haven't met any Thai students, have we?

That's about the funniest thing I've ever read in regards to "teaching" or "learning" as it pertains to Thailand. I've gotta remember that line!!

To “iGotNoTime”; as ingrained or inbred as the concept of “face” is here in Thailand (and in fact in most S/E Asian cultures, although not to the degree it is here), I believe we’re unlikely to see sweeping changes in our lifetimes in that regard. True changes are comin’ fast and furious to the Thai youth of today, but I feel it’s gonna take more than a generation to get Thais thinking in a way which doesn’t “revolve around face”.

To “Ming1”;
I have mentioned before that I routinely sit with a group of Thai guys who're pretty close to my age; they're in their early-mid 40's and I'm 53. Now over the years we've sat together we've become very good friends. I've been to their home provinces, met their wives, kids, gone camping with them, etc. I honestly feel I’ve become as much a “part of their group" as a foreigner ever can here. They don't alter their conversations at all when I walk up and it's still the ultra informal colloquially spoken Thai you'd hear when eavesdropping on a close knit group of people who’re interacting as "equals" (as in NO clearly defined superior/subordinate).

However, as soon as ANY of their superiors show up, the entire conversation alters, and is much more superior/subordinate polite-speak Thai. The conversation is way different than what I'm used to hearing when we're all just sitting together. This happens every single time any of their superiors shows up Soi-side at our "regular table". Now their bosses are just "run-o-the-mill-thais" too, close to the same age, close in salary, education etc. The only difference is they're the superiors of my friends at work. Now clearly, sitting Soi-side in the evening on plastic tables drinking beer would lead me to believe “we ain’t at work anymore”. Most foreigners wouldn’t even think twice about how they talked around their superior outside the workplace because we have very clear (yet very different from the Thais) ideas on interactions “in” and “out” of the workplace.

After the third or fourth time I watched this happen I asked the guys about it after one of their superiors left for the evening. They said, they couldn't speak to their superiors like they talk to me, even though they're outside work. I took this to mean that it would "violate" some unwritten (yet clearly known by all Thais) "superior/subordinate code of conduct". Again, this shows how Thais are unable to "leave work stuff at work", and interact as equals outside the work place. It's just too ingrained into their behavior to do.

If you're the superior of a group of Thais and you want to interact outside the work place, just realize that all you're ever gonna get from them is "polite-speak", nothing more. You ain't gonna "make friends" in the workplace with Thais you supervise, and possibly not even with Thais you don't directly supervise. That's just how it is. I'm not saying you can't interact with them, only that in my experience you're unlikely to be a "part of their group" or "one of the guys" because it just ain't done like that here.

Again, these are ONLY my personal experiences, and your mileage may indeed vary, still, it's what I've seen time and again. .. Sorry if this post repeated stuff I've said already and sorry it's long too. ..

[iGotNoTime]

LOL I see and hear that... I really think it is about presentation though.

Take a look at the teaching community in Thailand though and we can get a better understanding of the students. Chiang Mai for example, the retirement capital of the world. Old money, old farangs, many trying to get the most out of their pension. The result is tons of teachers (granted they ARE NES) who are doing what they do why? Because they need money. I remember when I was in middle school and half the teachers were teaching their final year before retirement. Seventy year old people who could care less if I enjoyed or was fascinated in the subject they were teaching. I don't agree teaching needs to be fun as some in Thailand would say the Thai children want, but at least make it interesting. I pity the Thai children who have to deal with teachers this boring. I pity the European, Canadian and USA students who have to deal with this boring rendition of education they are forced to endure and try to grasp something out of. That's not even considering the farang teachers with sick motives or the drunks in Isaan who are there to buy the next fifth. This is so far off topic, sorry for the rant.

Put simply it is not the kids' fault, it is the school demanding and seeking nothing more than a white skinned farang that claims to be a NES. I like that when teachers start the kids decide if they sanook enough right from the start.

[iGotNoTime]

To “iGotNoTime”; as ingrained or inbred as the concept of “face” is here in Thailand (and in fact in most S/E Asian cultures, although not to the degree it is here), I believe we’re unlikely to see sweeping changes in our lifetimes in that regard. True changes are comin’ fast and furious to the Thai youth of today, but I feel it’s gonna take more than a generation to get Thais thinking in a way which doesn’t “revolve around face”.

It may not happen to the degree it is gone, I am sure it will happen though. But as mentioned the benefits they see it produces for society (at least on the superficial surface) would be a solid reason those who hold onto the game will hold and continue to play it. Everyone always says Westerner's don't play this game and they call out the BS when they see it, I disagree though. I see this in the West often. When a boss is giving a speech at a dinner all will applaud, nobody will stand up and say "Well I think you are leading the company in the wrong direction" or "Well you really screwed up last quarter"... In the end everyone plays the game to some extent. They call it covering your own assets, or something like that. It is not in the best interest of anyone to blame and shame a superior, unless they have no recourse and your own job is not on the line with your actions. Granted it is played to extremes in Thailand even ignoring serious errors, but it is played everyone to a degree.

[Ming1]

I made a new thread for a summary of working in Thailand because I think it doesn't fit to the title of this thread any more. It's in the forum Living and Working in Thailand.