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Thailand and the "savage" tourism
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  1. #1
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    Some of you maybe know how much I'm interested about sexual slavery and prostitution (I don't make the confusion...anymore) as I explained it sometimes in my previous posts.

    Even if european countries such as France,UK or Spain know a very old tradition of prostitution (Les petites femmes de Paris and Pigalle are well known throuh the whole world) I have been really surprised and even chocked by what I've seen in Thailand.

    This shock made me think a lot about it, I made documentary researches, I met some french specialists about the subject and I did read a lot about the subject, everything that was related to prostitution in SEA actually.
    Less than one year after my first steps in Thailand I know better the topic, don't missunderstand me, I know it better due to my researches.

    This morning, while comuting to my university, a new idea of research came to me : the "savage" tourism. That is to say when tourism is almost all about doing what you cannot in your homecountry. This is true for ### but also for many many things that are afordable and available in countries such as Thailand, Philipines Dominican Republic and now Morocco or Cuba. Security rules are lower, police is easily coruptible and those countries know all strong economic issues which create poverty which leads people to do things they probably wouldn't do if they didn't know financial problems.

    So, when the tourist (please, don't read Westerner under this word) meet this lack of rules, and those peoples who realy need money just because this is a condition to survive, the field of possibility is suddenly widely extended.
    Those peoples who travel do not really pay attention about the country they visit itself, a little bit about the language and the peoples.

    I don't think tourism is supposed to bring large informations about history ethnology or economics about the country you visit but we must consider the fact that today, as it is cheaper and cheaper to travel from Europe to anywhere, much more people can go abroad.

    Maybe I'm wrong but I think tourism was few years ago visiting Egypt, France, Mexico or going to the beach in Spain or Bahamas. Now it seems we know the savage tourism era, many people can travel by now and meet poverty and sometimes ignorance about very dangerous points such as AIDS that lead to dangerous behaviour, in Thailand for example where the use of condoms is very low, whatever you can hear.

    I don't have solutions, I don't pretend to discover an issue as everybody here saw it, by its own eyes as we say in French, but I want to study this and also know what you think about my project.

    thanks for reading

  2. #2
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    I had a friend in 2002, who lived in Samrong, Samut Prakan who spent 12 hours a day 6 days a week in a factory sowing up clothes in a clothing factory. I used to feel sorry for her, she put up with the drudgery for 12 hours just sowing in that heat, every day, just to receiving a minimal wage in Thailand. I would think, what she would earn in a 12 hour day, would be what the average Australian spent on lunch in a cheap takeaway in Sydney Australia.
    Now to me that is slavery.
    Now the girls who work in prostitution at least get a reasonable income and works short hours, I don't feel sorry for them, that's there choice. they could work the drudgery of working long hours in a factory is they wanted, but they chose not to, and what I have herd from people in this forum, some actually enjoy this type of work, it is just the social stigma they don't like by friends and family. Now I think people should stop discriminating against these people who choose to do this Job, as they consider it so much better than working the drudgery in a factory, get rid of the stigma in peoples minds, there actually providing a service for desperadoes, let them be proud of what they do with out criticizing them, it just a Job, which pays good money due to market forces.
    Now on the other hand, I have a lot of admiration, for some one, who sacrifices the quality of there life by working in a factory, and that is the type of person I would want to marry, that shows me there not lazy. If i had a factory worker as my wife I would cut her hours down to 8 hours a day 5 days a week.

  3. #3
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    I too do not see a problem with prostitution if its by choice.

    I personally do not have a detailed view of how it is in Thailand or anywhere else. But from what I see its far better than many a country, such as mine - where its ugly, invisible to most and full of human right violation & hypocricy. And we feel good that we have buried it under the carpet and imagine the industry does not exist. And it is the police here who violate them more than any common customer - because its seen as a invisible profession with no human rights. Compared to that Thailand seems far straight forward and clean. Even if by doing so, they bear the brunt of narrow perceptions. All said, I would rather talk to a prostitute to figure out things than to discuss among ourselves here.. It could only lead to the promotion of our own personal worldviews or individual circumstances.

    So, if one has to be concerned about prostitution I think its not Thailand that one has to be so much worried about. It would rather be better to focus on some other countries where it is invisible and where the people in the industry are absolutely vulnerable without a voice.
    Never hit someone below the belt; for you are not the creator.

  4. #4
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    Few months ago I would have probably say that what you say here is a shame. But now, with some additional trip to thailand - country which I know since less than a year - and many many researches I agree with paul in almost all his points. The only one which disturbs me is that I cannot stop to think that, if every jobs were equals in wage, nearly none would choose prostitution...I maybe wrong but that's what I think.

    Trangam, I don't know if you're indian, but I saw a tv report about bombay and its prostitution market... I immagine what you're talking about, that's ugly, for sure.

    But, guys, when I speak about slavery I talk about girls kidnaped in their country, sold by an uncle in Cambodia, Burma or Vietnam and brought in Thailand. The girl you almost never see and hidden in very dark brothels, generaly speaking this is for the thai customers.
    THIS is sexual slavery, I know now what occurs in patpong is not.

    Anyway, leave the topic, my post was about "savage" tourism... not only the sexual aspect.

  5. #5
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    As an after-thought I think maybe I was wrong to ask you to look elsewhere. Because Thailand is the place you are attracted to and its well-being probably your concerned. So, fair enough you focus on that... Yes, I am from India and I see the Bombay scene as you saw on TV really ugly. But funny thing is that no one here will identify the country with it! They do not think it exists in 'their' world.

    I really did not grasp the idea of savage tourism. Is it that you get a chance to break rules, in a relatively less rich country, because money talks?

    If that's the case I do not know much to discuss right now. What comes first in my mind is that many countries (many who are rich) have a 'good-to-forget' past in how they acquired wealth or money. Many trader communities are accused of fleecing the ignorant farmers in the olden days. Some countries colonised and amassed wealth and then later distributed it 'fairly'. So, it seems everyone is busy doing anything to make their first 10 bucks, before they start a decent respectable business. However, for the first 10 bucks we will do anything?

    Or let me say for the first 10 bucks of opportunity!! Because for equal opportunity we need some bargaining power.

    So, there are many who want that 10 bucks anywhichway and many ready to pay.

    Sorry, I am too philosophical and no data here...
    Never hit someone below the belt; for you are not the creator.

  6. #6
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    I was thinking about the choice. Many guise in order to minimize their culpability toward prostitution say that this is their choice and we don't have to say our word about because it would be a judgement and therfore a lack of respect for these peoples.
    I have read a survey about this and the author was talking about this, saying that the main part of the girl interviewed said that, for sure, if working in a factory was better paid than what they do in patpong they would never have chosen prostitution.
    We all know this, this is not a choice just like one other, not a ordinary choice.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]if every jobs were equals in wage, nearly none would choose prostitution...I maybe wrong but that's what I think.
    There's a lot of Job's that are not equal, that we do for money, that we would not do as a choice if not for the money. In Australia, If you have ever flown over Australia, towards Europe, you will realize Australia is 90% desert, there is literally red dirt and sand for thousands of kilometers and if you work in an Isolated outback mine over a thousand kilometers from civilization you earn thousands of dollars a week. In fact even the lowest paid mine workers, in these conditions, doing the less dangerous job's such as a cook, still earn more than a doctor in Sydney, but who in reality, wants to live and work in that desert, with nothing but thousands of sand hills to keep you company. Well there are people willing to do this Isolated, dirty dangerous job, and consider the rewards of earning a few thousand dollars over a few hundred dollars a week in Sydney, sufficient compensation.

  8. #8
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    For sure, what's been written here about girls going into prostitution to make a quick buck just cause they dont have the self-diginity or diligence to seek a proper job is spot-on.

    Just some more info for Thibodi on this issue in Thailand.

    Thailand's nighttime girlies originate mostly from two regions of Thailand and they are the north and the north-east. In the north, working in prostitution is not the taboo issue it is in the north-east ie. girls who on having made a stack-a-cash flaunting themselves over men will be seen as 'She's done a dirty job, but who gives-a-darned, she made lotsa bucks'
    While in the north-east, a girl, who on working a bar in Pattaya, Patpong or Patong will NOT go home to her village and tell all the folks that shes been selling herself. She will instead inform everyone along the lines of 'Im working as a waitress at a hotel etc...'. Then if she picks up a Farang boyfriend boyfriend from a bar she will tell her family 'I met him in a restaurant'.
    Of course, whether the whole village actually believe her is another matter.

    Regarding the girlies themselves, all the Thais know full-on that the Farang is left with the 'leftovers'.
    All the decent looking girls (usually from the north) on working the nighttime scene DONT want to be seen working with Farang. There are many reasons behind this, example: it is not northern culture to fondle men at a bar who they dont know as they dont have the 'cheek' of an north-eastern girlie. Then since northern girls are fairer skinned they'll be given more money from a Thai than a Farang would give etc...

    The girls working with the Farang guy, do so mostly, cause the Thai guys DONT want them. According to the BKK Post last Sunday around 50% of the workers from the north-east already have children of their own to support. On top of this, the girlies working with Farang are usually on average much older than the northern girls. Most of these girls from the north-east are NOT at all good-looking in the eyes of a Thai but are so in the eyes of a Farang.

    In all my 11 years here i dont know how many times ive heard Thais ask me "Why do Farang guys all like ugly Thai girls?" and im not joking! Sure, they think farang guys are dumb having a north-eastern girl already with a couple of kids of her own with no education darned 'not' good-looking as a girlfriend. Then they have a right laugh when they find out the Farang even wants to marry her and take her home to meet his parents!

    Finally, one other question that ive heard from Thais a hundred times over the years goes like this "That Farang friend of yours, couldn't he have found himself a better girlfriend?" ie Thais do not understand that why us Farang who on earning a decent income, perhaps good-looking too and got a bitta style end up with a Isarn farmer's daughter for a girlfriend when they could easily have met a respectable girl from say Bangkok with a decent family, education and money of their own. Instead in the eyes of a Thai the Farang are even dumber in that their girlfriends arent just pretty ugly but also darned poor and so the Farang is ending-up having to send money to support her family!

    Im sorry guys but this is how the Farang guy is stereo-typed in Thailand.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Im sorry guys but this is how the Farang guy is stereo-typed in Thailand.
    I personally don't care how I am stereotyped. I am the happiest I have ever been in my life. My wife (Issan 100%), whom I met in Pattaya, is the most loyal, loving, and good-hearted person I ever met. Her family and the other people in the village always treat me with kindness and respect. What do I care what a bunch of stuck-up people think? Personally, I think they are jealous and their hearts are black. It's kind of sad really.
    Life is learning. If you stop learning, you might as well be dead.

  10. #10
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    Hi Vision

    Sure, dont get me wrong there are stacks-a decent Farang who have met and successfully had a long-lasting relationship with an Isarn women.

    Then there are heaps-a Farang out there who have been completely deceived by a so-called 'proper' Thai girl. Paul from Australia here has plenty of stories as a reminder.

    Of course, at the end of the day it depends on the person you have chosen to get into a relationship with whether they are genuine or not.

    One other reason there why divorcees with children seek a farang guy is that 'us' farang can be accepting of such a thing while i Thai guy 'can not'.

    Certainly, this can be seen as rather unjust as its perfectly ok for the guy to have a stack-a kids from previous relationships.

    As the once famous journalist Bernard Trink from the Bkk Post always said 'It is possible that it will work but it probably won't. So, be advised, have fun but dont marry one (Bar girl)'.
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