Another tense question (sorry)

[Ribs75]

OK,

Sounds complicated, but it's not really, as we use the tense every day.

An example would help:

I have (I've) been studying Thai for two years ผมได้ศึกษาภาษาไทยคลอดเป็นเวลาสองปี

OK, I believe that the translation I have given there is accurate. But I have two questions:

1. Why don't we use แล้ว on the end of the sentence like we would for the present perfect tense? เช่น ผมได้ศึกษาภาษาไทยเป็นเวลาสองปีแล้ว

2. What if I wanted to use the present perfect continuous tense without using 'since' or 'for' to qualify the time? Example: what if I just wanted to say "I have been learning Thai"

Would I say: ผมได้ศึกษาภาษาไทยตลอดอยู่ or, ผมได้กำลังศึกษาภาษาไทยอยู่ ?

The second one sounds totally wrong. Can you use ได้กำลัง to mean 'have been doing...'??

I know it is easy for Thai people to figure out, but we have 12 tenses in the English language and trying to get them right in Thai is very hard for us!

[Ivor]

Quote[/b] ]I have (I've) been studying Thai for two years

I would say ผมเรียนภาษาไทยสองปีแล้ว

Quote[/b] ]I have been learning Thai

ผมได้เรียนภาษาไทย

comments from fluent speakers will be appreciated

[Jing-Jo]

Quote[/b] (Ribs75 @ Aug. 02 2005,01:23)]I have (I've) been studying Thai for two years ผมได้ศึกษาภาษาไทยคลอดเป็นเวลาสองปี

OK, I believe that the translation I have given there is accurate. But I have two questions:


I know it is easy for Thai people to figure out, but we have 12 tenses in the English language and trying to get them right in Thai is very hard for us!

The translation you have given,ผมได้ศึกษาภาษาไทยคลอดเป็นเวลาสองปี, might be accurate to some strange linguistic robot with a Thai-English dictionary for a mind, but Ivor's ผมเรียนภาษาไทยสองปีแล้ว actually sounds humanly Thai...

In your last point regards 12 tenses in English: your method of translation is quite natural- a search for all the similarities that will finally yield a discovery of the differences between Thai and English...one of those differences being that 12 tenses belong to English, a reality of our language that actually befuddles a Thai learner of English no-end! Thai is very forgiving in the tense department for we speakers of English: strong focus on the present, stick a few จะ's in front of a verb for future reference, tack a few แล้ว's at the end of a sentence to head back and your Thai will be running in Thai time. โชคดี เพื่อน

[jaibaan]

Officially, the present perfect as I understand uses มา or ได้ or both, and แล้ว is needed on the end I think because of the time reference. But as mentioned above, street Thai goes a long way. Corrections welcomed.

I've been studying Thai for two years.

ผมเรียนภาษาไทยสองปีมาแล้ว
ผมเรียนภาษาไทยมาสองปีแล้ว
ผมเรียนภาษาไทยได้สองปีแล้ว
ผมเรียนภาษาไทยได้สองปีมาแล้ว

[Ribs75]

Hi Jaibaan and thanks for the pointers. Yep, I do realise that most people in Thailand do not speak in this very accurate and r-o-b-o-t-i-c way. The sense of what is being said is a lot more important and, during my one year stay there, I always got by on my level of Thai.

What I'm trying to do at the moment is really to elevate my level of the language to a higher level. To be able to distingush between 'have learned' and 'have been learning'. Also to use tenses together in the same sentence - just like we do in English.

I have since found an answer to my question about how to say "I have been learning Thai" without a time phrase like 'since...' or 'for...'

You can do what Ivor says: ผมเรียนภาษาไทยแล้ว (I've learned Thai) or you could give it a continuous 'twist': ผมเรียนภาษาไทยตลอดมา (I've been learning Thai)

Just trying to get some ideas of how to express meanings in different ways.

Thanks again

[Barrie]

Hello Ribs:

I think I understand what you are asking. There is something elegant about being precise or eloquent or articulate, whatever word you want to use. One of the most satisfying aspects of learning a language well is the ability to communicate nuance or subtlety.

The English language is renowned (or condemned) for just that and most western languages exhibit the same thing in different forms.

I live in western Canada and on the street, one often hears "We shoulda went there first" or "Yeah, I seen it the other day". I cringe when I hear things like that, I don't speak that way and, I confess, I pigeon-hole those that do speak that way. At the same time, I accept that it is all part of the language.

What I find fascinating is that every language that I have studied so far actually has several languages inside it, and I just don't mean slang. What sub language you use, at what time can have a huge influence on how you are perceived, and isn't perception the core of communication?

By this I mean that you can be perceived as snotty, over educated, down-to earth, ignorant and god knows what else depending on how you speak in which environment.

For me, it is a part of how I want to present myself to others and the world in general, in the same way as: Is my hair combed, are my clothes ironed, do I smell bad? Don't get me wrong, I am anything but a fashion plate and I don't always go out with a freshly shaven face but I do keep these thing in mind, depending on what I am doing.

From the little I have leared about Thai, the language is more forgiving about tense and structure, but I suspect that the same rules apply as they do in English and just about every other language, if one chooses to use them.

The reason that I am rambling on here is that I know next to nothing about Thai and I would like both native speakers and farangs to put in their $.02 about how Thai (the language AND the culture) deal with these differences.

For example, perhaps a starting point for the discussion, I have learned that there are two sub-languages that exist in Thai for royalty and religion. Maybe what I am talking about is more formalized in Thai, but I confess that I just don't know enough and probably never will.

To anyone who can clarify this, I encourage you to chip in.

Forgive me if I have overcomplicated your original thread but your questions inspired me.

Cheers,

Barrie

[Barrie]

Sorry, but I seem to be on a bit of a roll:

To use your example in English:

-I have been studying Thai for two years.
This implies an ongoing effort that started two years ago
-I studied Thai for two years.
This implies more of a historical annecdote
-I did study Thai for two years.
This could be a defence or rebuttal
-I was studying Thai for two years........
This implies that more needs to be said, preceeded with perhaps a "but"

Does Thai make these distinctions?

If I'm being too anal, just tell me and I will quietly go away

Barrie

[pichai]

I have been studying Thai for two years.
I have studied Thai for two years.

Both can be translated as follows:
ผมเรียนภาษาไทยมาแล้วสองปี
ผมได้เรียนภาษาไทยมาแล้วสองปี
ผมเรียนภาษาไทยมาได้สองปีแล้ว

[Saengjan]

For the meaning of "I have been studying / learning Thai for 2 years." or "I have studied / learned Thai for 2 years now."

What about - ผมเรียนภาษาไทยมาได้สองปีแล้ว ? or a more formal version - ผมเรียนภาษาไทยมาเป็นเวลาสองปีแล้ว

If it's a question "How long have you been learning Thai?",
you would say " คุณเรียนภาษาไทยมาได้กี่ปีแล้ว "

If I want to say "I have been living in England for 15 years (now)." I would say " ฉันอยู่(ประเทศ)อังกฤษมาได้สิบห้าปีแล้ว "

I think it sounds more smoothly Thai.

[pichai]

Hello Barrie and all,
We never stop learning from each other right here.
Your postings are more or less useful for all interested in learning Thai for sure.

Cheers,
Pichai




Hello Khun Saengjan,
It would be appreciated if you could help clarify what is given below in terms of translation, especially "present perfect continous/progressive" and "present perfect". Our friends from all over the world learn a lot from this webboard.
Your assistance is badly needed, for our friends can learn 'proper' Thai.

Quote[/b] ]If it's a question "How long have you been learning Thai?",
you would say " คุณเรียนภาษาไทยมาได้กี่ปีแล้ว "

"How long have you been learning Thai?" = "คุณเรียนภาษาไทยมาได้กี่ปีแล้ว"
"How long have you learned Thai?" = ?

Quote[/b] ]If I want to say "I have been living in England for 15 years (now)." I would say " ฉันอยู่(ประเทศ)อังกฤษมาได้สิบห้าปีแล้ว "

"I have been living in England for 15 years (now)." = " ฉันอยู่(ประเทศ)อังกฤษมาได้สิบห้าปีแล้ว "
"I have lived in England for 15 years." = ?